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Zahiyya: Welcome to the Designers Plants and Coffee podcast, where we're sewing, sipping, and staying rooted.

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We're three creative women building handmade businesses and sharing real conversations about

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design, growth and what it really takes to make things that matter.

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So grab your coffee, pull up a project, and let's grow together.

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Naima: Today, we are happy to introduce a lifelong friend of Designers plants and coffee. Dr.

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Fatima Pierce is with us today.

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She she has a super impressive resume, but today she is here in her capacity as a certified grief coach.

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She is going to talk to us about some often misunderstood topics of grief and how we as creative

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entrepreneurs can kind of center ourselves and recognize our grief.

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So welcome to the show, Dr. Pierce.

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So can you give us a little bit of background about how you enter this field of grief coaching

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and life coaching and all of the things that you all of your dot, dot, dots.

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Fatima Pierce: So again, I am a certified grief coach.

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I don't even know how many degrees, I don't know how many certificates, but this is my most favorite adventure yet.

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So for more than 20 years now, I'm afraid to say I've been coaching in some capacity, whether

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it started out as middle school cheerleading and moving into career coaching when I was a federal

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employee, moving up so quickly, people always wanted to know, how did you do that?

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How did you do your resume?

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How do I get ahead?

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So shifting into career development and leadership coaching as well as consulting and executive coaching.

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But as I talk to mostly women throughout my journey, listening between the lines, what I'm hearing

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from them is not I need a resume or I want a new job.

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It's I'm suffering with loss, with grief.

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I don't know how to move forward.

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And of course, we've been through life now, so we've all experienced grief and loss.

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And if I didn't have 8 million degrees, I would have gone back and got a degree in clinical psychology.

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But when I found grief coaching, which is a present and focused forward focused approach to

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dealing with issues, I said, this is it.

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This is how I can help women, how I can help all of us begin to move from being a grief avoidant

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society to being grief integrated, grief intentional and grief acceptance.

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So that is how I got here.

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Naima: Thank you for that intro.

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That kind of leads me into our next question.

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You talk a lot about working with women and helping women through all of their coaching.

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What are some common misunderstandings or misgivings as it comes to women and how we deal with grief?

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Fatima Pierce: Sure. Just one of the most common misunderstandings about grief is that it's tied to Death or

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tied to the loss of a person.

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I can tell you that one of my most profound experiences with grief, when I started to look at

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it differently, is when I moved across country and said, why am I feeling like this?

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When this was actually moving back from the Midwest to the east coast, which is home, I'm like,

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why am I feeling this way?

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That's because I enjoyed my life in the Midwest.

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It was a slower pace.

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I connected with my husband more.

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I was trying new things, and then I came home so quickly because of a job, and I'm like, wait a minute.

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I've lost something, and I need to grieve that loss.

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Zahiyya: So.

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Fatima Pierce: So I think we often only associate it with death.

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And as we know as women, society has done a number on us where we have to be strong, yet we can't show emotion.

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If we are working women, we have to act like we don't have a job when we're at home, and when

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we're at work, we have to act like we don't have a family because society just wants so much from us.

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And we've never been given permission to actually grieve.

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But we also want to understand that grief is an act of love. Love.

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It's a part of a love story, and so it's nothing to avoid or to hide from.

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And you can also learn and grow and still find beautiful things in life while you're grieving.

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As long as you integrate it into your life versus trying to stuff it down, which we know if

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you have a stomach ache, you gotta let.

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Let it out or it's gonna rot from the inside.

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Grief works the same way. You have to. To let it out.

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Emotions tied to grief are normal and natural, but when grief is unattended, that is when the emotions can turn negative. So we.

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We need to understand also as women, we have significant life changes, and they more significantly impact us.

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Things like divorce or when our kids go off to college or if we have a miscarriage or all these

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other things that are unique to women sometimes where we just don't have a space to let it down.

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Zahiyya: It's interesting how you said everybody, you know, associates grief with loss, with, you know,

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someone dying and how you flipped it, and it's just the loss of something.

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So grief, by definition, is just the loss of something.

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So being that this is like a creative podcast for people, designers, entrepreneurs, you know, so is creative.

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How would that show up for us?

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You know, like, how would that show up for, like, a creative person?

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Be somebody lost their job or someone you know, I don't know, lost their relationship.

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How would that show up in like a creative setting?

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Fatima Pierce: It shows up the same way because you're suffering a loss.

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And we have to think about all that we hope for in life.

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We have hopes, we have dreams.

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When we start our businesses and we're excited, we think we're going to make a million dollars

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and we're going to partner with, I don't know, name a black designer, Sergio Hudson.

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And when those things don't happen, we are crushed.

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So it manifests itself as if someone is dying because something has died.

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A dream may be lost, finances may be lost.

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As you mentioned, if you are now a full time entrepreneur, solopreneur, your friends go away,

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your husband might leave you.

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So there are all of these things that can accompany style starting and running a business that

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have the same type of grief effect.

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And of course there are cascading effects.

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So you get that divorce.

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And thankfully nobody on this call has been divorced, including me.

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So I feel comfortable using that example.

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But when you get divorced now you've lost an income and now you may have to change your dream.

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You got to go back and get a job when you left the job and thought you were going to be a full time career creative.

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So it manifests in all of those ways.

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But the emotions tied to it that we feel, the sadness, the fear, the anxiety, the guilt, the

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regret are similar to what we have even when we.

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Naima: Lose a person that really kind of hits home because as someone who's had to go back to work

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after trying the full time creative, it was a struggle, you know, just to get back into having

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to go back to a 9 to 5 when I've had all this creative freedom for a number of years.

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So that really hit home and that makes me think about like what kind of advice would you give

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somebody who is struggling with having to maybe go back to a 9 to 5 job or having to close their

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business or even if they're just not feeling that creative passion anymore and don't know how

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to get out of that slump of letting the business go when it's not working anymore.

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Fatima Pierce: So one thing that I want to be sure to clarify is that I'm a grief coach, which is different from therapy and counseling.

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So in grief coaching we don't diagnose, treat.

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I'm not a medical or a health professional.

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Coaching is really present and forward focused, it's action oriented, it's how can I move from functioning to high functioning.

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So if you are experiencing things, experiencing things, feelings, behaviors, that are less than functioning.

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That's a sign that you may need medical, clinical type of attention.

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So I wanted to clarify that piece of it you heard me mention in the beginning or maybe in the intro about gratitude.

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And my coaching framework is all about living through hope and gratitude.

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We can look at any text, religious text, anything that we believe in, all of our teachings.

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Nowhere does it say that living is absent of suffering.

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So we know that suffering is a part of life.

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No one ever said it's going to be amazing every single time.

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And even in the context of counting it all, joy.

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We tend to think joy means you have to be happy about everything.

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But what it really means is that you are living, you're living a life.

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If you are experiencing suffering, that means you're alive, you are experiencing a setback,

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you still have a chance to move forward.

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So when we are in that place where we don't want to be, we have to go through a self reflection

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process where we can ask ourselves, how do I want to show up now?

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How can I still accomplish my dream?

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Going to work has never been the end of the world for anybody.

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Because with these jobs now, we can do more than one thing at once.

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How about I now have a stable income where I can re energize my business for a year and hustle

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hard and then go back to full time being an entrepreneur.

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So it's really about the reflective piece and questioning how am I choosing to show up today

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in this moment and what am I going to actually do about the dream that I still want to come true?

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Zahiyya: I mean, you mentioned it a little bit in terms of like moving forward.

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But how would you like recommend someone who feels like stuck in that place and they feel that

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they can't get through, like whether whatever the loss is, whether it be loss of someone's job,

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a business, whatever that is and how like what steps would you take to move forward?

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Fatima Pierce: So grief is unique to whoever is grieving.

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So I hear the questions about steps, but you won't ever hear me say, first do this step, second,

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do this and then do that third thing.

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Because grief doesn't work that way.

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It's not linear, it's not pretty, although it can be beautiful.

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So what I would encourage people to do when they're feeling stuck is do the hard thing. We have to.

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And this is something we say in grief that usually takes people's breath away.

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You have to relinquish the expectation of a better or different yesterday. We cannot change that.

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We cannot go back to it.

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Guilt and Regret are big emotions to try to get through when we're grieving.

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But how useful are they?

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If I had only done this, if I had answered the phone when they called, if I had gone to this

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fit versus going to wherever I ended up going to school.

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Those things cannot change where you are now and they cannot go with you where you're going.

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So we have to relinquish that expectation that yesterday is going to somehow be different.

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We have to also practice forgiveness and that includes ourselves.

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We need to say to ourselves, like, I forgive myself and others for everything related to the loss.

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Maybe that business partner left you hanging.

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If you have not forgiven them for that again, you are the one that's going to be stuck.

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They rebranded and they ripping somebody else off.

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But you, you're still stuck.

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So we need to ask ourselves these questions.

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Questions like, how much have I actually lost by not forgiving?

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That's how you become unstuck with the self reflection piece of that, where you are really thinking

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about you, how you're showing, what did you actually lose?

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What can this teach me about loss?

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I would think in this business we hear a lot of people who start businesses or name products

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after loved ones like Carol's daughter and, you know, Uncle Jesse's or whatever it is.

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And if we lose that person, we're like, how can I go on?

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They would have wanted me to do this or they would have wanted me to do that.

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So we have to be a little bit selfish in our grief and our growth where we try to take control

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over what can I do now?

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Who do I want to become?

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What do I want to say to the person that I'm grieving?

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What do I want to say to the old me?

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And once you let those things out now, who do I want to be moving forward? So it's deep work. It's deep work.

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And that's what coaching does take you through that framework of really understanding who you

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are and how you want to move forward.

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Naima: And I think that, that that in itself is a word, but I think that is the biggest fear for a

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lot of people is that self reflection and doing that self work and digging deeper than saying,

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oh, I'm okay or I'm sad about it, but just digging into and getting deeper into the root of the problem.

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Zahiyya: Let's say it's not you that's necessarily grieving if it's somebody else that you see grieving.

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I mean, I know it's like we talked about the deep work and you know, you have to self reflect and Stuff.

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But how could you, how could you help somebody else through it?

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I mean, what would you do to like, encourage them to do the deep work?

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Fatima Pierce: Absolutely. One, we have to understand that grief has its own language.

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And we, how we talk to people.

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We're a grief avoidant society.

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So we just do what we think we know.

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When we say, oh, I'm so sorry for your loss, but that can really upset people.

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Or when we want people to get through it and feel better because we love to check a box, we

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may say, well, at least you're still young, you can get married again.

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Or, you lost your baby, but you got two other kids.

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What's going on with you?

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You can always start your own business.

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It was just a little business.

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You weren't making any money anyway.

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So we have to understand that empathy doesn't start with the words at least.

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And we don't want to minimize how someone is feeling because it can be more than one thing.

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Yes, I may still be able to get married again, but I'm also still crushed about my divorce.

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And give them permission to live in that and help them through it.

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Be very specific about what you can offer.

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If you say, hey, call me anytime they call and you're not there, then what happens?

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So how about, I'm going to the grocery store, can I get something for you? I'm near your house.

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I'll come sit with you if you let me.

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I'm going to our favorite coffee shop at 2 o'. Clock.

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Whether you come or you don't come, I'm going to sit there for 15 minutes and just wait for you.

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The best thing you could also do is ask them, how would you like to be supported in this time?

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Maybe they don't know, but you can offer them things like this.

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And one of the greatest gifts that you can offer someone is to give them permission too.

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Because just like we're having this conversation, other, others have not had it.

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So they think they have to tell you that they're okay.

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They think they have to show up in a brave face, with a brave face.

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These jobs for nine to five folks, they only give you three days of bereavement as it is, so

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you feel like you have to keep going.

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So making sure that you are gentle with them.

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And that's also a sign for us to do that with ourselves because we treat friends so much better than we treat ourselves.

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If our friend is suffering a loss and they say, you know, I can't make it to the event today,

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we say, oh, that's okay. We get it.

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But for us, we're like, oh, my God, they're going to think so bad of me.

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I got to show up.

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I need to be there.

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It doesn't matter if this thing just happened.

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So we need to treat ourselves like we would treat others who are experiencing losses, too.

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Zahiyya: So, I mean, I know we were about to wrap up, but is there anything else that we have not touched

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on that you think that the audience should know?

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Fatima Pierce: One thing to think about is community.

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Just like you're doing here with this podcast or how you do when you have your collectives and

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everything else, finding space that appreciates whatever it is that you're going through is

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not something that we need to go through alone.

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Although we're talking about self reflection, we also have group coaching and things like that.

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That may be beneficial because when you start to connect with others and really see, see that

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you're not alone, that unlocks a lot of creativity and healing and hope and gratitude as well.

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So make sure that you are not in a place where you want to completely cut off from everyone else.

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And we're tempted to do that because we don't want anyone to see we've not given anyone permission.

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And as business owners, I think there was one question that I saw earlier about just what to

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do when you get stuck.

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I'm trying to think of.

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Let me look on here. Oh, the balance.

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How do you show up?

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How do you balance being.

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Showing up professionally while you're grieving?

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And I think now with social media and with other things, we have the beauty of being able to

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integrate our personal and professional lives.

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There's really not this hard line anymore.

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So it's okay to say to your customers, you know, you haven't seen me on social media in a while.

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Here's a tidbit about what's been going on in my life.

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You may be surprised how they respond to that.

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Same thing with your family.

00:17:57,490 --> 00:17:58,970
I'm starting a business now.

00:17:59,210 --> 00:18:01,290
Somebody else is going to have to cook dinner.

00:18:01,290 --> 00:18:02,730
I'm not messing with y'. All.

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And really just make it known that you're in this space and that you are working to show up

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one for yourself, show up for them.

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But here's what you need.

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Just like you are being specific with your friends about what you can provide, you also have

00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:25,760
to be specific with your friends about what you need from them or what you don't need from them.

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And you can integrate them into your grieving process instead of trying to keep them away from

00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:36,080
it because they're going to notice anyway, so that's one way to try to work that out. I did.

00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:41,400
So most of my clients are government, corporate types and all of those things.

00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:48,650
But because I was coming here and I want to show up for the people, I did come create a download

00:18:48,810 --> 00:18:53,330
that you all can pick up. It's called Creative Momentum.

00:18:53,330 --> 00:18:58,730
Three gentle actions to grieve and grow your business with courage.

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So my coaching circles and my coaching practice is called Anchored in Courage.

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And we know that it is a courageous thing to face a loss and do it with gratitude.

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So I'm under that umbrella, Creative Momentum.

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That'll be@anchoredencourage.com and we'll put that in the show notes.

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But I want to just leave with an invitation for you to have more of these conversations.

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They don't have to be so segmented, like what do we do for business?

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Or what do we do for creatives?

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Because grief is something that everyone experiences and so it's universal, even though how

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we deal with it is unique.

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And I just want to leave you with hope is always present.

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So I wish you all well in your Greek journeys.

00:19:45,540 --> 00:19:47,140
Naima: Thank you for joining us today.

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I am Naima from Fearless Threads, along.

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Zahiyya: With Sahia from COVID Me Chic and.

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Fatima Pierce: LaTisha of Keeping your Stitches, Fatima of Anchored in Courage.

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Naima: Bye, everybody.

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Zahiyya: Thanks for hanging out with us on the Designers Plants and Coffee podcast.

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If you love this episode, please leave a review, share it with your creative friend, or tag us on Instagram.

00:20:12,790 --> 00:20:16,310
Until next time, keep dreaming big and growing slow.